This is the second offering of our Two Shrinks Over Drinks series. This time we have a friend, who’s also a doctor and co-author of a book entitled, “Mastering the Clinical Conversation: Language as Intervention.”
Here you get another chance to eavesdrop on two MORE shrinks caught in a casual conversation. If you have ever wondered what it is like to listen to a couple of psychologists/counselors talk over a drink, well, here’s your chance!
We talk about a myriad of topics and it took two hours to do! In fact, this could have been topics that are fit for a whole day’s chatter!
So this will be the first part wherein we talk about:
– Dr. Villatte’s ACT story
– Philosophical framework in counseling or psychotherapy
– What Skinner referred to when he wrote about a pre-scientific way of explaining human behavior
– What we mean by an approach that has precision, depth, and scope; how this can affect the way therapists choose their approach or models of therapy, and how this can assist clients make decisions on the kind of therapy they want
I am no expert movie analyst or critic, so pardon me if I dwell into an unfamiliar topic for me. I recently saw the movie that won several major awards at the Oscars this year which featured a character named Waymond. I could not help but smile when I heard Evelyn (the name of the character who is his wife in the film) express her disbelief that her husband had just turned into some kind of superhero by saying to Waymond, “You? With the fanny pack?” There are now two movie characters portrayed that I can count as my all-time favorites. The other one is Forrest Gump, a character played by Tom Hanks in a film released in the 1990s.
My guess is that I am not alone in this. Key Huy Kuan who played Waymond, won best supporting actor for his role, and Forrest Gump the movie as I remember, did really well at the tills as well as the Oscars of that time. From memory, I think Forrest Gump’s success at the box office was unexpected, since most movies that did well financially up to that point were sci-fi or superhero movies. I guess the stories and message of these characters don’t go unnoticed by the public and the experts. They resonate to us in an odd way. They have something that they don’t have. So to speak.
Although I am quite sure that there are many other movies that depict such unlikely heroes, these two are for me, the most inspiring. Having been in business, I couldn’t quite understand back in the 90s why a character like Forrest Gump would make me feel so much admiration towards someone who was supposed to be just existing to survive. Since learning more about the workings of the mind from an ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) perspective, I have discovered what it is that made me gravitate to Waymond and Forrest.
There is one thing they don’t have that I have that makes them such admirable characters. It’s an ego.
Let’s do a thought experiment here:
We love our dogs. Ever wondered why? Since I work with couples a lot, I’d like to use this metaphor. If you have seen a male dog get snarly when its mate has gone off with another male dog, that’s part of their mating instinct. When the mate comes back to it or if the male dog has successfully fended off the competing male, then the couple can just go on being with each other without much of a fuss. It’s as if nothing had happened. With human couples though, it takes more time to get back to the usual interactions. We humans have a real handicap when it comes to being present with our lot in life. Any couple going through recovery from a transgression can admit that their thoughts can make them do things that don’t match the situation. They can be fast asleep and start a major fracas in bed even though they know they have important matters to take care of when the sun rises.
Another example would be if you forgot to feed your dog at the usual time. Guess what your dog will do when you finally present it with dinner? Will it snarl to show anger and frustration that you took your pet for granted? On the contrary, your dog will be extremely happy and grateful to you just hearing the familiar noises that come with dinner. Try noticing what happens if you forgot to prepare dinner for your spouse or kids. You could get an earful and maybe a night full of grumblings.
End of thought experiment.
There are subtle ways we project our egos. We can start noticing what image we want to present to the people we meet. Here’s one that may sound familiar: While you come a bit late to a party, you tell the people who welcome you about how busy you were with so many business meetings. Get it?
Waymond and Forrest are lovable characters because they just lived according to what is closest to their hearts and available to their senses:
For Forrest, it was his love for Jenny and Bubba, as well as Lieutenant Dan. Remember the scene where he punched a guy who was harassing Jenny? Once he got Jenny with him, that was all that mattered. Once he started the shrimping business and Lt. Dan came back to be his friend again, they were all that mattered.
For Waymond, it was his wish to be kind and loving to all and to have as much fun doing laundry and taxes with his wife, daughter, and father-in-law.
Both were without egos, and both with much love and wisdom that we all have at times, tucked away inside of as humans. There is a part of us that wants what Waymond and Forrest don’t have. The good news is, we do have the capacity to also not have what they don’t have. We just have to be more mindful of what it is that’s in front of us.
“Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever,”
Mahatma Gandhi
Have you come to a point in your life when you feel like as it says in the Bible, chasing after the wind? Have you ever felt like every day has become a pointless pursuit of comfort and tranquility? Has your life turned into an endless problem to solve? You go from fixing one problem after another. When’s the next challenge going to come? Will I be able to surmount the bigger ones down the line?
If you have, don’t worry, you’re not alone. I came from the same quagmire. Early in my career, I started believing that life was about fulfilling a role of being around to be the problem solver. Furthermore, I had learned from my history that the secret to the good life is the comfortable life. One in which I can be the great problem solver, conquering one obstacle at a time until there remain only the easier ones. I dreamt of eventually coasting along as I moved into old age.
I lived that way for the first 20 years of my working life. People around me would notice how I looked then. I often carried a tired and angry expression on my face; always on alert for the next challenge that comes my way. I was the hero who was always ready to come to the rescue.
To borrow a metaphor I saw in a YouTube video, you can view a rabbit running across from a window, but you wouldn’t know if that rabbit was going for a carrot or running away from a predator. I was like that rabbit that people saw from a window. One couldn’t tell if I was in business because I simply enjoyed doing it or if I was doing it to avoid the shame that comes if I had failed in business. For those who are new here, I spent the first 20 years of my career as a businessman. A failure in business meant I had failed my family.
You would probably understand why I often looked tired and angry. Tired because life has become a struggle and angry because I didn’t see any end in sight. Life was sending me challenge after challenge to surmount. Like the rabbit running away from a predator that eventually tires out, I was exhausted escaping from the jaws of my shaming, “Whatever happens, don’t be a failure,” thoughts.
One day I woke up and started noticing the hamster wheel I was on. It was as if I was living backwards. Like some of what I learned in psychodynamic therapy, I lived hoping to come back to the safety of my mother’s womb, wishing to get back to that fetal position of a tranquil life.
That tranquil life turns out to be a mirage. No matter how much we try to avoid it, life has its challenges and running away from the feelings and thoughts that these challenges come with, is like becoming a rabbit that spends most of its time fleeing a predator, although in my case the predator is my own worst fears.
You and I can pivot towards a life in pursuit of what truly matters to us. Rabbits run away from life-threatening circumstances. We humans though can run away from our thoughts and not just actual threats to our safety. It only takes the rabbit to notice when the noise behind the bushes was just a gust of wind to make it go and pursue food or a mate. Although it is difficult, we can start to make changes in our life directions by noticing if we are spending much of our energies running away from our unpleasant internal experiences, or if we are pursuing the qualities of being and living that matter to us.
The happy rabbit is the one that pursues nourishment and the possibility of a mate. Take it from there, are you willing to start pursuing the rich and meaningful life, even if it means that your fearful inner experiences will become more evident as you go. Maybe that’s what Gandhi meant in his words. His life was mostly about pursuing something that was good and noble, rather than about running away from the dangers his mind reminded him of. He pursued the irrational move to expose himself to the dangers of a life spent for the welfare of others, and paid the ultimate price. Nonetheless, he lived, not the tranquil life, but the meaningful one. He is the quintessential rabbit moving in the direction of what he wanted to do with his time…every single minute.
One of the awesome features of ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) is the use of metaphors that makes counseling work more experiential and interesting. One that has recently become my favorite is how an ACT therapist, Chris McCurry, uses the chess metaphor so effectively. Here’s how I remember some of the ways he describes the chess game and how it is similar to the way our minds work.
Our minds have different thoughts with varying degrees of importance and likeability. Some are quite important while others are part of our mundane thoughts, like our plans to go grocery-shopping for the day. The important ones can refer to our sense of meaning and purpose, our thoughts about how we can face life’s tragic aspects, or our important relationships that require our attention. Now, as chess is a game of two sides of a battle, one side can represent our more positive thoughts while the other will be our negative ones. In McCurry’s illustration, he says that even if we feel like the positive side may have the upper hand at any given moment, there will always be at least one piece of the negative side that remains. We can attest to this fact simply by checking in with our personal experiences. How many times have we enjoyed a vacation and said we don’t have any single negative thought in mind? Probably not! If you are married, did you do so with nary a negative thought? On the other hand, how many times have you been caught up in negative thoughts and still have that little tiny voice inside you that says: You’re alright, don’t worry! As you can see, neither one can totally eliminate the other.
In Russ Harris’ version of the chess metaphor for the mind, he shares that each white piece actually generates a black piece and vice versa. Positive thoughts remind us of our negative ones! You can test this with your own experience. See what you sense if someone like me told you that you are the nicest kindest person on the planet! See what your mind does with that information. I can also start with a negative judgment. You are the worst most unlikeable person on the planet! See what you mind does with that too.
Did you sense that in the former your mind tells you: Hogwash! I am a kind person but certainly not all the time or not compared to everyone else? On the other hand, did your mind do the same opposite-thinking while hearing me tell you that you are the worst person on the living earth! Your mind may say something that goes like this: Yeah, you’re right, sometimes I do feel that way, but that can’t be right all the time!
As you can see in these illustrations that there are no winners in this game that we play in our minds. It is unwinnable as McCurry describes it. So it is hopeless trying to be the positive pieces in this war in our heads. The negative pieces just aren’t leaving for as long as we are alive and with our nervous systems functioning as they are as I write and as you read this post.
The question now is: Then who could we be in this chess game so that we can get out of this war and move on with our lives? The answer is the chessboard! We are the containers of these thoughts but we are not them! And being the containers, we don’t really need to care who wins or loses in this game. We can remain as witnesses to this war!
If you are able to write down your thoughts, then this is a practice in metacognition! Noticing your thoughts and noticing that you are noticing them! That’s a part of you that notices everything that goes on in your life! And with this capacity, we can then choose the particular course of action that is most effective for what is unfolding in front of us!
Furthermore, I love that Chris McCurry also uses the chess game to illustrate life and its tragic elements. As we play the game, we will eventually lose pieces as we go through it. The object of the game is to keep playing with the pieces you have left. This is a bigger metaphor actually of not just our minds but of life itself. If we live long enough, we will experience the bitter sweetness that life presents. As Steven Hayes, the developer of ACT writes in his best-selling book,
“You have only so much time on this earth, and you don’t know how much. The question “Are you going to live, knowing you will die?” is not fundamentally different than these questions: “Are you going to love, knowing you will be hurt?” Or, “Are you going to commit to living a valued life knowing you will sometimes not meet your commitments?” Or, “Will you reach for success knowing you will sometimes fail.” The potential for pain and the sense of vitality you gain from these experiences go together. If your life is truly going to be about something, it helps to look at it from the perspective of what you would want the path your life leaves behind to mean.”
Life gives us but one chance and it doesn’t come without moments when we have to say goodbye to our youth, old friends, and loved ones. Like the game of chess, let’s make the most of what we have at present and live our One Life Only as well as we can.
Do you need counseling for depression, anxiety, trauma, relationship (marriage, family) problems, insomnia, anger management problems, infidelity, teen parenting issues, grief processing, addiction, procrastination, work performance, and even weight issues?
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Our offices are located in Quezon City, Metro Manila, Philippines.
CMS Clinic
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Interview with Chinkee Tan and Christine Bersola-Babao on MagBadyet Tayo about financial conflicts in relationships, October 23, 2023
Nathaniel Chua is a member of an international organization called the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS). He became chair of the Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion Special Interest Group (DEI-SIG) of ACBS; the first Non-North American to do so.
Nathaniel Chua has a Master’s Degree in Counseling and continues to learn more of the most cutting-edge approaches to working with the human condition.
Below is Nathaniel Chua’s first virtual talk held on November 17, 2023 in front of an international group of therapists from Low or Middle Income Countries (LMIC). He is the first from the Philippines to do this:
What is One Life Only Counseling about?
You can be assured that your information with be kept completely confidential.
You will be respected regardless of your religion, gender preference, ethnicity, economic status, and even your personal lifestyle and values. We are LGBTQIA+ friendly!
Your counselor will not impose their values and beliefs on you.
We use a scientific model of counseling that has precision, depth, and scope. Below are bullet points to let you understand better what we mean by this:
By precision we mean that our approach to counseling tells you how these mechanisms of change work. It is not enough to say that a sense of self-awareness is what creates changes in people’s behavior. Our approach tells us how self-awareness works as one step within a set of processes that can lead to lasting change.
Depth means the approach we use does not conflict with other theories and models of therapy. In fact, many other approaches can be used as forms of treatment towards greater psychological flexibility. Our approach for instance does not conflict with findings in the area of attachment theory, gestalt therapy, psychodynamic therapy to just raise a few examples. It cuts across other levels of analyses.
Finally, by scope we mean that our approach comes from the discovery of the smallest set of processes that cuts across multiple mental health concerns from anxiety and depression to personality disorders to psychosis, etc. It is a transdiagnostic approach that seeks to understand what many of the symptoms or syndromes come down to, so these processes can be targeted to address many, if not all of the disorders listed in different diagnostic systems.
We are also probably the only counseling service in the Philippines that follows a certain philosophy of science with certain a priori assumptions about human nature. With this in mind, we offer a holistic consistent approach to life’s challenges that is a-ontological, monistic, and pragmatic.
Furthermore, ineffective behaviors are addressed by their classes and functions, therefore making our model of therapy parsimonious and much easier to apply to daily living. Most of our clients are empowered to use the skills they learn in therapy to apply to a multitude of challenging situations without having to rush to a therapist to address specific concerns. If you remember Einstein, everything can be explained by one simple equation, E = mc squared! In other words, we do our best to be ACT-Consistent or as some other experts would call it, we practice, ACT Fidelity!
The approach we use is also one that is endorsed by the World Health Organization as an effective psychological tool for coping with any kind of life crises! It can be described as a kind of psychological vaccine that has been found to be effective in improving and promoting mental resilience in the face of many, if not all kinds of life challenges.
Here’s a paraphrase from Dr. Steven C. Hayes in my interview with him on April 5th, 2022:
“Here’s what the World Health Organization, the best public health and scientific group in the world says about this protocol, this extensively tested protocol is helpful for anyone who is stressed, for any reason, in any circumstance.”
Since 2019, we have been very excited to offer this type of a radically different approach to therapy that is not just about relieving symptoms, but also about helping people towards creating lives imbued with meaning and purpose.
Here’s a video about what makes One Life Only Counseling Services different:
Recent certificate given to Nathan Chua for presenting a talk about couple’s therapy in front an international audience of therapists from Low or Middle Income Country (LMIC). He is the first and so far the only one from the Philippines to accomplish this.Interview with Julius Babao and Christine Bersola Babao, October 25, 2023Interview with Dr. Steven C. Hayes, the developer of ACT, April 5, 2022Interview with Dr. Andrew Christensen May 14, 2022Guest resource person with Boy Abunda on his show The BottomlineOne of several TV appearances on Sakto with Marc Logan and Amy Perez
July 2024 interview on Kapuso Mo Jessica Soho about jealousy and anger
Here a video of Nathan Chua’s appearance on a “Dapat Alam Mo” Episode:
Here’s a solo interview of Nathan Chua with an ACT Matrix Expert and Counselor from the United States, Jacob Martinez:
Interviews with the experts:
Here are two interviews with the two experts that have had a huge impact on my work in recent years. They are with Dr. Steven Hayes and Dr. Andrew Christensen. Here are the videos:
I think even without a new year to celebrate, many of us have often made certain commitments that we hope to accomplish beginning at a certain time. Well, looking back, how many of those commitments have we fulfilled? What is it that keeps us from getting from point A to point B?
One way we end up not doing what we resolve to do has to do with reasons. Our logical minds have evolved to find cause and effect relations. This is an important function because in order to solve problems in our environment, we need to know what causes something to happen. For instance, relevant to today’s issues, our minds needed to find out what causes the spread of the coronavirus in order for us to keep infections down and manage the extent of the pandemic. The scientists needed to know how the virus causes life-threatening pneumonia, for them to find ways to counteract the process of fatal illness developing in people.
The only drawback to this mental capacity is when the rule becomes inflexible. They are applied across other domains when they don’t really put us on a path to where we want to be. For example, we say, “I have to eat chocolate if I am sad.” The rule here is sadness should be removed by eating unhealthy snacks. However, we can reverse this statement and say, “I should not eat chocolate to stop me from feeling sad, because in the end, the lack of control of my behavior makes me even sadder and therefore the urge becomes stronger.”
Now if reasons really have so much power over us, wouldn’t we be all following the reasons why we should not be eating chocolate when we feel sad? The answer is no matter what the reasons our minds come up with, we still can opt to act one way or the other. This only means that no matter how much we try to give ourselves reasons to do stuff, we can always make a decision that complies or doesn’t comply with the behavior we want to either stop or begin doing more of.
This means reasons are just thoughts that our minds come up with for us to make logical decisions. Unfortunately, what may sound logical may not be what’s good for us. Now, you might be thinking, what then do I do about this? Well, one way to do it is to first notice your thoughts as thoughts. They are not you. Your mind is just a part of you and your bodily functions.
One way to practice this ability to keep your thoughts separate from you, is to give your mind a name. Thank him or her for the suggestion. You’re not bad for having those thoughts, it’s just part of your minds’ functioning. It is nothing more than a reason-manufacturing tool.
You can also add in one more step. You can notice what sticking to your diet is in the service of. Maybe you’d like to become more attractive so you can start having more opportunities to find a date. It could be that you’d love to see your kids grow old enough to see them go through different life stages. Whatever your motivations are, it is best to come up with ideas that give you intrinsic motivation, rather than those that make you think that you are a bad or lousy person if you don’t follow your resolutions. The latter only spirals into the negative feedback loop of emotions.
And finally, keep in mind that whatever life-enhancing habits we want to create, it takes time and patience. Your road will not be a straight line. Every time you fail at your commitments, you can always pick yourself up and keep going towards a direction you want. We are creatures who want to create habits that work for our lives. If we suffer an injury to our leg, we still want to stand up and walk again, don’t we? And yes, you and I will fall to the ground as we rehab, but we pick ourselves up and keep going, with pain and all. Because walking matters, just like living does too!
Anger was a familiar foe to me. As a child, I saw how anger in the family was able to get the giants at home what they wanted from myself and others. And so I learned that albeit unpleasant and unbecoming, anger can be a means to a good end. Anger for me was never an end in itself. People should understand the reason for my short temper, so I thought. Yet, there would probably be very few occasions when I would realize that my angry behavior served me in good stead as I pursued the good ends.
Much of what ails us with anger is not about the feeling itself, but rather the coping style that most of us use as we feel this difficult emotion. You see, my biggest problem with my anger was precisely what I had just indicated in the opening sentence of this blogpost. Anger had become a familiar foe, when all it was, was a part of my nervous system telling me that I just experienced frustration or disappointment or anxiety.
For as long as anger remained my enemy, then it would continue to stand in the way of me becoming the person I wanted to be. Back in my days as a businessman, anger got in the way of my acting in a manner that was most faithful to my deepest aspirations for my life. My inner yearnings to help the people around me made me passionate about keeping the business healthy and viable. Mistakes at work meant a step backwards and threatened to move the company away from this goal. My mind dutifully and persistently told me that the solution to avoiding mistakes, is to exert control over the people working for the business with my anger. Unfortunately, gaining full control over other people is like keeping ocean water from being salty.
The logical solution was to intimidate people into feeling motivated every day. What’s worse is that my mind has learned this dictum to try and try the same thing over and over again until I succeed. Put in another more familiar way, my mind told me to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result.
Here are some tips for you my readers on what to do when anger pays you a visit:
Welcome your old friend and breathe into the feelings and body sensations that arrive with your anger.
Notice it and observe it in your body. Observe what it is egging you to do. Notice it with a beginner’s mind.
Remind yourself that this is but part of a journey, a hero’s journey if you will, and you just encountered something that is getting in the way of the valued outcomes you want at this very moment.
Give yourself some compassion as you suffer through these obstacles and difficult feelings.
Remember what it is that you wish to stand for in your life.
Notice the thoughts as thoughts and not as commands that will make you go in a different direction if you’re not aware. Remember the actions your mind will dictate can move you away from the valued outcomes you had imagined.
We all have seen the unfortunate results of harsh behaviors in our midst. We have also seen how it affects our sense of purpose and meaning as we go through the daily challenges of life and relationships. Anger is neither bad nor good. It’s just a feeling that we all can contain within us. It is a part of us. Not wanting it is akin to saying that you want your tongue to taste only food that is pleasant. Unfortunately, our tongues and other senses come in a package. We will feel both ends of the spectrum of emotions.
And if you are like me, your anger might have something to offer you. For many years, my anger had been telling me that I did care about the business, because its viability meant the well-being of the people involved. This realization has helped me see what was behind my frustrations and disappointments. I cared and I still do to this day. May we experience the benefits of accepting life for all the bitter-sweet experiences it presents. As an old ACT saying goes, “We care where we hurt and we hurt where we care.”
